User talk:Mcroskell/archive 1

Thank you

Hi there! I just wanted to say thanks for all the work you have put in uploading these great files. I'm going to have a lot of fun looking through them! Best, --Goldberg988 11:01, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

I've looked at some of his stuff before, like the Lamentations and Consolations. It's always impressed me, but I have never taken the initiative to study one of his works. --Goldberg988 17:58, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

I just wanted to thank you too for your gigantic upload. Did you scan all these scores yourself? If not, could you please state the scanner or the website you got the scores from (I guess Library of Congress) - this makes verifying the copyright a lot easier for us. --Peter _talk 13:17, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

Heller scans

Hi Mcroskell! Firstly, thanks for the scans :)

It has been brought to my attention recently that a few of the Heller scans has the logo of "LC"... the logo will have to be removed for the scan to stay on IMSLP. The following is a list of the IMSLP index numbers of the files:

IMSLP #7020
IMSLP #7027
IMSLP #7028
IMSLP #7033
IMSLP #7039
IMSLP #7041
IMSLP #7043
IMSLP #7044

You can simply re-upload to the same filename after you remove the logo :)

Thanks! --Feldmahler 16:18, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

• How does one go about editing & removing things from pdf's. I know how to delete whole pages or combine files, but how exactly do you edit out certain areas? Is there a program you could recommend?Mitch 16:38, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

Hmm... this is a problem. If you don't have Acrobat (the real thing, not the Reader), you can go about it the hard way (well, not *too* hard, but it depends on how much you know about using DOS).

Basically, what I would do is first extract the images from the file using pdfimages, which is a DOS command that is part of the xpdf-tools command suite. Then, I would edit out the logo with Paint, and reconvert each image back to PDF using the convert command from Imagemagick. And at the end of this, you can combine the PDF files using whatever you were using before :)

Tell me if you don't know how to do this... I will try to think of other methods in that case (but this is really the best way). --Feldmahler 19:51, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

• Well, after exchanging numerous emails with the original scanner today, he is adamant that he does not want the music posted, (which brings into question why he posted it in the first place on a messageboard, it's not like I hacked his computer to get access to them) irregardless of whether the logo is there or not. I personally feel this is somewhat ridiculous as every single one of those works is long out of copyright and in the public domain (Heller's been dead well over a hundred years!). However, out of respect for his wishes I'm going to refrain from resubmitting them myself. However, thanks for the information on pdf editing, I will keep it in mind for future reference.--Mitch 00:33, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

You may safely ignore what he says, as long as he cannot prove he holds any real copyright, and scanning is in no way copyrightable. In fact, even verbatim re-engraving of the score is not copyrightable, so there is absolutely no way scanning can be copyrighted. This is certainly not the first time a scanner has requested this (to be precise, it is the 4th time), and will certainly not be the last.

IMSLP does not run on courtesy (as per policy set here), so I will not remove his scans unless he can prove valid copyright. However, I will have to leave the files on Copyright Review until someone removes the logos from them (maybe admins?). You don't have to be the one removing the logo if you don't want to, but someone has to do it, or else the file will be removed. :) --Feldmahler 00:49, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

• I knew he didn't have any ground to stand on copyright wise. His arguements to me mainly centered on the rights of the libraries that he scanned the scores from to hoard the material and make money off selling copies of public domain material. A few excerpts:

"I found this morning that you have uploaded on IMSLP many Heller files, 10 of which comes from my collection and were copied by authorization of some italian and german libraries. I had to delete your posts, since libraries could have a very negative reaction and prevent me - and other members - to get new scores from their collections."

"It is easy to make sites like IMSLP grow with the effort and the money of others. I personally spent more than 4000 euros for buying Heller scores and your action had the effect that I'll never post here anymore something valuable and rare. But the real matter is that I didn't want to ruin my relationship with the Libraries all over the world that have helped me in finding and copying so many rare things. I'm not legally obliged towards them but there is a sort of fair code that should prevent to spread their values here and there. There are also small libraries that can survive only by selling copies of their books."

Basically, I don't understand the mentality of wanting to keep uncopyrighted musical works from seeing the light of day and instead hoarding them for a select few. I'd think he'd be glad that his efforts had enabled a great deal of people to be able to familarize themselves with this music. After reading some of the policy about how the site shouldn't practice an appeasement policy to collecters or libraries like these, I've been convinced posting them was the right thing. However, I did tell him that I wouldn't repost them personally so I'd feel better if someone else would do it.

Aye, part of the point of IMSLP is so that people won't have to spend exorbitant amounts of money to have access to music. I despise and abhor those who would seek to profit from needless - and generally artificial, as is the case here - scarcity. Yes, sites like IMSLP grow with the effort and money of others, and with the effort and money of our own contributors. So, too, do public and even private institutions. I'm not surprised that libraries would not want their 'value' spread, but I'd be very surprised if the librarians wanted to hoard it. Anyway, it's late, and I'm waxing opinionated. I'll try to take a look at those files tomorrow. --Emeraldimp 02:17, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

I also agree about the edition hoarding. Though I sort of wonder why something is called a "library" if they "[sell] copies of their books". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think something like that is usually called a "publisher" ;) And in which case neither the scan nor the reprint has copyright (just like how we deal with Dover scans). :) --Feldmahler 02:24, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

Hmm, I followed the discussion here...it's incredible that people claim copyright on scanned PD scores. Of course, I understand that companies want to make money with scanned PD music, that's quite ok, they can do this. But they should be fully aware of the fact that PD scores belong to the public, which means they can be changed, copied and distributed. If we made an precedent now and removed those scores we would also have to delete then a big part of already uploaded PD files... If there are any clear copyright violations here on IMSLP the corresponding files will be removed, but proved PD scores (without logos) remain here! Anyway, I removed the logos and uploaded the above mentioned scores again :) Hobbypianist 05:14, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

Hello Mcroskell, Carolus here. This is an extremely annoying issue that I've encountered myself on occaision from libraries and archives. I fought one particularly nasty battle over a work by J. P. Sousa that was published in 1886 with the Library of Congress! I ended up having to contact Prof. Lawrence Lessig of Stanford University Law School (who argued Eldred v. Ashcroft before the US Supreme Court and wrote the Creative Commons Licenses) to help "persuade" some morons in the music division that a manuscript of a published work that old (or even an unpublished manuscript of a composer dead more than 70 years) was actually public domain. I call it the 'gatekeeper syndrome.' Part of it stems from the old "common law copyright" concept, which held that unpublished works were under a perpetual copyright. BTW, LC, as a branch of the US government, is ineligible to claim trademark protection on their dot-matrix stamp. On another matter, Mcroskell, the Moszkowski: Introduction & Allegro, Op. 90 is an arrangement by Thomas Johnson that appears to be of relatively recent vintage (after 1922) and thus potentially under copyright. Could you please find out when this was first published? Looking at the typefaces used, etc. I would guess it as having been issued between 1960-1990. Thanks, Carolus 03:11, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

I couldn't find any exact info on when the Moszkowski Op.90 piece was first published. Thomas Johnson lived from (1908-1989) though so I think the piece probably still is under copyright and should be removed. Sorry about that, that one came near the end after I had already posted about 40-50 or so Moszkowski pieces from old editions so I probably just fell into the pattern of assuming it was like the rest and wasn't paying enough attention.

No problem, Since Johnson died in 1989, there is no way the arrangement is free in Canada. It's also extremely unlikely that the arrangement was published before 1923. I'll go ahead and delete it. Thanks, - Carolus 19:26, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

Cui: Waltzes, Op. 31

The preface by Robert Weeda appears to be of recent vintage and should be removed from the PDF file before reposting.

Moszkowski pieces

Thank you so much for uploading the piano pieces, I was looking for them for ages in different libaries.

In op. 93 page 6 is missing in last piece, Mousse de Champagne. It would be nice you could update this, since this is a very nice piece.

Hi Chamberpianist, I wish I could upload the missing page for you. I'm a big fan of Moszkowski as well and have listened to quite a bit of his piano music via the Hyperion CD's of Seta Tanyel (although the only piece I've ever played of his is Etincelles). Unfortunately that score wasn't my scan, but rather something I downloaded quite a while back. I'll make a note on the article front page that it is missing page 6 and maybe someone else can upload a complete version.--Mcroskell 14:11, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

Fruhling p 57 Moszkowski

Dear Sir,

I downloaded this piece but acrobat says there was a problem with this file and i only see grey.So is there something wrong with this file or did i do something wrong. I am desperatly seeking this opus especially the Liebeswalzer Op 57 no 5 it is very hard to find but you have it i think.. Can you help me?

greetings from the Netherlands! mrpianoman36

Hi mrpianoman36, I just checked the piece you are talking about. I downloaded it and scrolled through the entire piece (including no.5) with no problems, so I would say to try and download it again because I think the file is fine. If you are still having problems with it I can email you a copy directly when I get back home later tonight. Let me know.--Mcroskell 17:41, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

Dear Sir,

Thank you for answering so quickly. I downloaded the latest version of Adobe and that solved the problem!

Thank you very much!!

Franz Schubert Work Lists

Hello Mcroskell,

Molinarius here. I thank you very much for giving my stupid attempt almost exactly the form I intended. Well, I think, I must learn a lot of technical things before trying a contribution, but I don't have much time (normally only weekends), and I am so slow. And so I think I must let another person with better technical abilities finish it. Naive, as I am, I thought it would be easier for me as a German to type those hundreds of titles than for other persons with other native languages.

The problem with the Schubert Lieder (to take these as an example) is their scattered publication history. I wanted to remind that Schubert put a lot of them together into numbered opera and we should respect this and try to find out his intentions for doing so.

What would be necessary is (a huge work): a list which shows the following things: Deutsch Catalog Number, title, text incipit, text author, opus number (authentic or posthumous), date of first publication and where to find it in the Peters collection, in the "Alte Gesamtausgabe" and in the "Neue Gesamtausgabe". Maybe a way to realize this will be found. A chronological order also could be useful - oh yes I see the problems connected with this...

So for this time bye bye, I'll remain a fan of IMSLP. --Molinarius 09:23, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

Flott

Splendid with the new Grieg scores. "Flott" as they say in Norway !!! Abra 09:43, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

curious

Dear Mcroskell. I think you're becoming the biggest uploader here. I'm just curious about the following. As an amdin I go through the daily process of verifying new uploads. With most of your contributions, I just trust the publisher information you provided, because frequently there is no trace of the publisher in the file. Can I ask you how you obtain all this valuable information? This could learn me something usefull I think. Or do you base an estimation only on the lay-out? Anyway, again a big thanks for you copious pdfs on IMSLP! --Peter _talk 09:35, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Hey Peter, I wonder if you could give me an example of some scores that you're talking about, with the publication info filled in that isn't included on the score. I think with most of the stuff I post that I provide publisher info for also has that information appear somewhere in the score. The exceptions to this would be reprints where the cover and introduction, etc. contain that information, but since they are copyrighted, have to be deleted from the final score I post. There is also the case of scores from CDSM, which have no information whatsoever about who the publisher might have been. With these I usually just end up leaving the publisher blank, but since CDSM puts the composer name and piece title at the top of every page, it should be pretty easy for the admin to tell it is from them, and thus public domain. Also, sometimes websites devoted to a particular composer will have all the publishing information for them or at the least the publication years (I think I've used this method with Dohnanyi, Bortkiewicz, Gliere, & others). Hobbypianist also provided me with a site that is useful for finding publisher and publication date for some composers: http://www.klassika.info/index.html . Finally, I guess the other exception would be the Muzgiz works, but since they have such a distinct typeface, language, etc. it is pretty easy to tell when it is from them. To conclude, I try to only put publication info that I'm sure of since I don't have enough experience dealing with music scores to be able to tell the pubisher or time period it is from just by looking at the typeface/layout. Hope that was kind of able to answer your question.--Mcroskell 19:09, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Grieg

Hi, thank you for the Caprice-Waltzes by Grieg, it is no more published and I have been searching for it since a long time. Do you have by chance also the Symphonic Dances op.64 (4 hand version)? I inquired by Peters, and they told me it is no more available.

Hi Ludwig, glad I was able to provide you with the Caprice-Waltzes. I've posted everything I have of Grieg that wasn't already up, so unfortunately I can't help you out with the Symphonic Dances. I know Abra is posting a lot of Grieg material, so maybe it'll get posted sooner or later.--Mcroskell 22:48, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

Schubert lists again

Hi Mcroskell, I don't mind anything concerning your editing of the Schubert opus list. And it's a logical step to add a list of the Deutsch catalog numbers (in analogy to Beethoven, where the works with an opus number are followed by the WoO, the Hess list, and so on). With the Deutsch number nearly each work by Schubert is easily to be identified. It is a chronological list with the strange feature, that the inexact dates are put before the exact ones, and meanwhile some dates had to be corrected. But it is the best list we have. The problem with Schubert is: he wrote on some works day, month, year (normal use in German speaking countries), on other works year and month (inverted: added later from memory), on others only the year (added maybe much later), and on others nothing at all. So we can make a chronology, if we accept, that a lot of works fall out of it or can only be placed with uncertainty. And that's not very satisfying. What a chaotic person Schubert was (compared with Brahms for instance), but in this chaos we can find a paradise of wonderful sounds. So let's be happy with all these fragments, alternative settings, versions and so on - "every note is worth to be performed" (Hermann Prey said this, I think). Cheers, --Molinarius 15:54, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for your great submissions on Liszt

Hi Mcroskell, thanks for your many submissions on Liszt. You have provided some very rare scores and first editions. Where did you find all these? --Funper _talk 14:19, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Hey Funper, glad I was able to contribute my part towards the massive goal of getting all of Liszt's works posted. I got those scores from a variety of different sources. Quite a few were CDSM, and the others I've probably picked up from internet messageboards over the years. On a side note, I had a question for you. After I posted the scores I tried to update the works list and link the newly posted files. Normally, I would just hit edit at the top of the page and that would let you add whatever you needed, however for the Liszt composition list, it seems you have to click edit on the particular section you want. After editing whatever section they were in with the link, it would take me to that sections page and the link would show up. However, when I returned to the main page of the list with all the works listed, the link did not show up. I saw that they eventually got linked to after you saw them, so I was just wondering what it was I was doing wrong.--Mcroskell 19:07, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

The server is purging the cache I think, I don't know why but it takes some time. If you type ?action=purge in the address bar when you are on the main page of the list it will show all new links permanently. Once again nice scores! --Funper _talk 21:15, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Moszkowski op.93 again

Hi Mcroskell, I found a complete version of op. 93 in Sibley library (english titles), which is complete and uploaded it. Thanks again for the many rare pieces you upload, once I receive a fast internet connection at home I also have more to provide. Chamberpianist 11:15, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

Friedman transcriptions

Hi!

I thought you might want to know that this page loads someshat slowly - even though I have a DSL connection. I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to break up these concert transcriptions into several pages - one for each composer involved. BTW, all Soviet works issued 1918-1989 are Muzika or Muzgiz, except for some that we generally can't post issued under Muzgiz's imprint Sovietskii Kompozitor. Thanks for all your wonderful additions to IMSLP! Carolus 03:05, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Hey Carolus, I guess I've just become accustomed to my high speed cable connection and forgot to think that for someone with a dial up connection that page would probably be a royal pain in the ass! Anyway, I don't have a problem with breaking it up into separate composer pages, as that can kind of be a happy medium between cluttering up the Friedman page with each individual transcription listing vs. having them all consolidated onto one page. Is the best way to do this just to create new pages for each composer (i.e. Bach Transcriptions, Beethoven Transcriptions, etc.), copy & paste the information to the new page, and then delete the old page afterwards?Mcroskell 03:13, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Hi, Yep, that's the best way. You don't even have to delete the old one, but change it's name by "moving" it. Use cut and paste instead of copy and paste to eliminate the items not needed on the re-named page. Carolus 02:28, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Done:) On a side note, how do I get rid of the 3 pages that already had transcriptions on them. I tried placing a redirect link on them, but they still show up on Friedman's main page. I'm specifically talking about

• Choralvorspiel 'Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme' (Friedman, Ignaz)
• Paraphrase on J.Strauss' waltz motives from 'Treasure Waltz' (Friedman, Ignaz)
• Paraphrase on J.Strauss' waltz motives from 'Voices of Spring' (Friedman, Ignaz)

Should they be deleted now instead since the works appear on the respective composer piano transcriptions pages?Mcroskell 02:54, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Hi, Looks like those pages are now double re-directs. Leonard periodically cleans those up, so it should all be fine in a few days. He's probably already written a utility that does it automatically! BTW, I answered your Feinberg question over at my talk page. - Carolus 03:32, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

Da Motta's Alkan Exercises

Hi. I came across your uploads of these pieces, and wondered if the missing ones will be online soon (nos. 86 - 115)?

Cheers

Hey Lloydbuck, the problem with this piece is that it comes from the MIT archive project. When I downloaded the 4 sections, no.3 (which contains exercises no. 86-115) came up as a damaged file when I tried to open it. I've made note of this on the MIT Project status page and I guess we'll have to wait and see if anyone else is able to download it successfully.Mcroskell 00:16, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

I believe the file is severely damaged some way. I've tried to reconstruct the file using various programs to no success. It may be because the file was somehow truncated when it was uploaded. --Feldmahler 00:21, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

PLIIIIIZZZEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

08.08.2008 Dear Mcroskell!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plz... I sad on the page " Godovski" you upload "Prelude and Fugue on BACH for the Left-Hand (Godowsky, Leopold)" but the page error. pliiiiiizzz!!! Send me this notes on my e-mail : cellars@mail.ru

I very want playing this! Sorry, i bad speak English :DDD

Hi Mcroskell, I'm not sure if I'm doing this User Talk thing correctly, but I hope you get this message. I was imslping for the Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue piano solo, and I came across your scanned copy of it. However, I could not open the file because Imslp is apparently still working on it? Would it be possible for you to email me the score of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue? My email is mning2009@gmail.com

I hope this goes through. Best, Michelle

Hi Michelle,

you should properly use Mcroskell’s current talk page rather than one of the archive pages – they’re for old, finished conversations that have been filed away.

Mcroskell hasn’t been active on IMSLP for over a year, so I thought I’d jump in.

The Gershwin Rhapsody in Blue isn’t available owing to technical issues, explained here and here. The work is still under copyright in the US. Sorry but we can’t offer files via e-mail.

Regards, Philip Legge _{@ © talk} 01:08, 9 January 2010 (UTC) (IMSLP copyright review team)