User talk:Feldmahler/archive5

Free public domain sheet music from IMSLP / Petrucci Music Library
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[1] --Leonard Vertighel 05:19, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Ok. :) --Feldmahler 09:14, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

For works, too? --Leonard Vertighel 11:37, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

If no file has been uploaded, and the user is new, you can delete it in one day, and leave the {{MsgWelcome}} template on the user talk page with a note saying to not create empty work pages. I don't think returning contributors will have this problem, but you can also delete the work page in a day and leave a note. Might also be a good idea to do this with the empty composer pages. :)
If the user has uploaded a file but have not submitted it to the work page, notify the user on their talk page that they will have to complete the submission process if they want the score to appear on IMSLP. Delete the file and work page in the normal cycle (after 1 month) in this case. :) --Feldmahler 12:18, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

More or less what I was doing :) About the uncompleted submissions: We said that the 1 month cycle was only for typesets (at least for now) - what about scans? Should we delete only the work page and leave the file until we decide what to do with them all? It also bothers me slightly that in this way, we will have empty pages lying around for extended periods of time; but I don't have any better ideas at the moment. Anyway, I should finally decide to make some user message templates, or this will get too time consuming. I think I should also move some of the notes on my user page to some centralized place for all admins to use. And probably I should also integrate all those deletion/notification rules into the admin policies, or we will end up discussing the same things over and over again because nobody remembers. One of these days... :)

So many great ideas, so little time... *sigh* ;)

On a related note, about the "file conversion service" I was planning, how could that work? If it's just a color/grayscale PDF file (which I suppose will not be fixed automatically, as opposed to just bad compression, right?), the user can submit it as usual, but what e.g. with a bunch of JPEGs (we currently have at least one such ZIP archive lying around unsubmitted)? Should that be: user uploads and adds to the list, someone (me) converts it and notifies user, user submits? Or should we find a different solution to avoid the risk of the user just vanishing before the last step?

I find it is best to let the user do what he wants, and then correct any mistakes... jumping in during the submission process is likely to make the new contributor confused, and very possibly click the "x" button in the upper right hand corner ;)
Unless it is a series of loose JPG files (i.e. something that would be a pain to clean up), in which case you can delete them immediately and notify the submitter. For ZIPed JPEGs/PNGs, if it is public domain, you can convert and then notify :) Unsubmitted files always have lower priority than already submitted files. In any case, it may be a good idea to leave a little time before jumping in and correcting mistakes (unless the submission process is already finished), with the exception of loose JPG files, and other pain-to-clean-up messes, in which case they should be dealt with immediately.

By the way, have you ever considered integrating file upload and submission into one step (one form)? I don't know how difficult that would be or if it would be possible at all, but it might reduce the number of incomplete submissions. I suppose it would nonetheless be good to have in addition the possibility to perform these steps separately, but we could have that a bit more hidden for special purposes.

Great idea! Another bullet in the todo list ;) This will likely not be too easy though, and will require some transition work (for people already accustomed to the old submission method... I may try to meld the two together so they both work, but we'll see how it goes...) --Feldmahler 14:18, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

And by the way, if you want me to try and help with the coding, just let me know. (Not that I have very much time either...) I am by no means a good programmer, but I have written some small PHP scripts for various purposes. And I won't be offended if you afterwards reject my attempts as unusable :) --Leonard Vertighel 13:00, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Actually, that would help a lot! However, you will have to start getting used to the Mediawiki codebase. For example, you can start with the second item on my "Quick Hacks" to-do list (progress meter)... that is pretty isolated so you can work with the official MW code. I may set up some kind of SVN or something for the IMSLP branch of Mediawiki... but that's in the future :) The idea for now is that you have to become familiar with the Mediawiki code structure.
Of course, some of the other hacks are not exactly easy... and so I think it is a good idea for you to try and decide whether coding is more efficient for you or just moderating IMSLP (or a combination of both). Because I can myself adjust to this... for example, if you take care of most of the moderating on IMSLP, then I can spend more time on code. While I would love to have extra programmers help out, I don't want to force you to do something that you don't feel productive doing :) --Feldmahler 14:18, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
Ugh... only installing that silly uploadprogress package thing took me about an hour... it started with me typing "pecl install uploadprogress" and the shell replying "bash: pecl: command not found". I'll spare you the rest of the story :) If I continue like that, maybe for Christmas I'll have done something useful. Christmas 2012. --Leonard Vertighel 16:15, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
Hahaha... well it is quite hard at first if you aren't used to it... and I wasn't aware that the uploadprogress PECL package was needed? I thought it was pure PHP...
Anyway, maybe you can mainly admin IMSLP, and slowly worm your way into PHP and Mediawiki little by little whenever you feel like it? :) --Feldmahler 22:54, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
The code that you linked from your user page uses the function uploadprogress_get_info() which is provided by the PECL package. I have no idea if there is a way to do it in pure PHP. Anyway, what I need to figure out now is how to add the popup to the upload form. I guess that changing random bits of code is not a good idea, since it would make upgrading hard if not impossible. Can/should it be done with software hooks, of am I on the wrong track?
Hmm... I guess you are right about the PECL package... funny how I thought it was native PHP. Anyway, I've updated the link on my user page to a more "authoritative" source for the upload progress meter :) About the software hooks, Mediawiki does have a few hooks, but likely you will have to code-dive and manually add hooks. Yes, it is a pain during the upgrade cycle (already is haha), but that's the only way possible. Though do try to add only the minimum necessary to the existing files, and do everything else in other files. You will have to be rather familiar with SpecialUpload.php (if not others) in any case.
Add. Hooks. Oookay. So far, I have a vague idea what hooks are and virtually no idea how to use them, let alone how to add new ones. Anyway, I'll have a look at the new link, although at first glance I'm not convinced that this AJAX thingie is better than the popup window; moreover, if I'm not mistaken, it still requires the PECL package to output some meaningful results (and not just an oscillating blue box). But I'll check it more thoroughly. --Leonard Vertighel 12:11, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
Haha... don't sweat it... Its not like we are on a deadline for that feature :) Also... maybe you can start a forum thread if you have any more questions about this or any other programming issue? Since it seems like it's going to be quite a long discussion :) --Feldmahler 13:45, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
P.S. By the way, I actually perfer no AJAX if it is possible... I like to keep the complexity to a minimum, both for maintanence and security reasons. --Feldmahler 13:52, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
As far as moderating is concerned: In theory, I can only be around in the evenings (CET) during the week (though occasionally I quickly pop in at other times, like right now). I can of course notify users about uncompleted submissions, revert vandalism etc. (Been doing that already to an extent, though often others were quicker.) I can not really check if the submitted scores are PD (except for some obvious cases), so that is left to someone more experienced like you in any case. --Leonard Vertighel 05:38, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
That's fine... you are already doing the reorganization of the IMSLP project pages anyway. Don't want to overload you haha :) --Feldmahler 11:30, 2 May 2007 (EDT)


I got your message. Apparently, you are defending the idea that Beethoven should be classified as a Classical composer. Personally, I think Domenico Scarlatti, for instance, was by style more of a Classical composer than Beethoven. Music historians and theorists, as I have read, are divided over the issue of whether to consider Beethoven a Romantic composer or not.

Actually, most of the music history "summary" texts label Beethoven as Classical. I know there are some music historians who make a point out of saying Beethoven is "Romantic" or even "Modern" just like how they make a point out of saying Mozart and Haydn are "Romantic" (Charles Rosen like I said). But these are "radical" texts, which is why they make a point out of it, and which is also why normal music history summary texts generally do not claim thus.

To say that he was not a Romantic composer at all is no more accurate than saying these: 1. The Temptations is a rock and roll group. 2. "Tired of Waiting for You" is a song by the Beatles. 3. Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam was born in 1927. He is an obese, gray-haired, clean-shaven old man with glasses.

Embarrassingly, I know next to nothing about pop music... and so I don't know about any of these three.

I don't know how much research you did, but perhaps you should do more. labels him Romantic; many sources label him a Classical/Romantic bridge; and at least one source labels him as the first important figure of the Romantic period, as well as labelling Mozart as the last of the Classical period. I can show you more if you'd like. I won't revert your edits, yet, at least. I will, however, watch this page to see what you think about it, if you care to respond. Marcus2 11:42, 5 May 2007 (EDT)

I don't particularly care about what other sites label him, just because I know there is a lot of misconception regarding the categorization of Beethoven due to all the "romantic" legends associated with him, along with the "romantization" of him done by the 19th century composers (Wagner et al). I can almost live with tagging him Classical/Romantic, but I still very much believe he is deeply rooted in the "Classical" tradition of Haydn and Mozart, and that he is much more "Classical" than "Romantic". Nor am I alone.
Generally, the idea on IMSLP is: if something is contested, discuss it first while leaving it alone. Edit wars are very bad for the wiki, and will ultimately result in bans if it is severe enough. --Feldmahler 12:25, 5 May 2007 (EDT)
How about we work out a compromise. Perhaps I'll find a way to categorize Beethoven into both the Classical and Romantic periods in revising the template. Will this work for you? Marcus2 12:14, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
I'm not sure it is worth the trouble. I know categorizing Beethoven under Classical is musicologically correct... and I'm not sure what the benefits of categorizing Beethoven under Romantic are. --Feldmahler 13:12, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
"I still very much believe he is deeply rooted in the 'Classical' tradition of Haydn and Mozart, and that he is much more 'Classical' than 'Romantic'." Good point, but what can you make about Schubert? Schubert is also considered by many to be a part of the Viennese Classical period, and one can say that he was also deeply rooted in the Classical tradition. Yet I consider both to be mostly Romantic based on style. Marcus2 20:35, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
After reading this, I was just about to mention Schubert as an example. And what about Schoenberg? Is he late romantic, or early modern? What about Stravinsky? He went through like, 100 different genres, from romantic to serialism. What about Gershwin? Is he jazz, or is he classical? There are so many debates like that. And I don't think anyone is ever going to get anything out of it. Beethoven is both romantic and classical. Hell, his later string quartets can be categorised as "modern" too. I think that Beethoven was half-romantic, half-classical. He has deep roots into classical movements, yet the weight of his symphonies resembles more Brahms' symphonies than it does Mozart's. However, in this site, I'd say we should classify Beethoven as a "Classical" composer. Why? Because a) people who don't have extended musical knowledge will look for his works under "classical" ("romantic" doesn't tell them much), b) If the sea was classical music and the sky was romantic, and Beethoven is a huuuge iceberg, well, 2/3 of the iceberg is inside water. And that's how it is with Beethoven (while for Schubert, for example, I'd say he's 1/3 in the water, and for Gershwin I'd say he's more into jazz than classical). c) Feldmahler is attending a music conservatory right now, while the person who wrote "Romantic" in the site you mentioned probably thinks that all Stravinsky, Bartok, Rameau, Mozart are "classical" music. What's more, in, Beethoven is under "Classical" music, and not "Romantic". Well, anyway, that's my $0.02 . Hope I helped =P ~ jujimufu 11:04, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
Most music history summary texts mention Schubert as more of a Romantic, though I can see a valid point for him being Classical. The problem is, is it fair at all to classify composer under "styles"? What is the exact definition of each "style"? I would personally just follow the general consensus from musicologists, and not take it as an indication of anything material in the composer's music :) And aren't you also going to a conservatory in a few months, Jujimufu? ;) --Feldmahler 17:03, 17 May 2007 (EDT)


hello. I'm the Turkish translator. I'm creating the Turkish news page. But it comes with a frame I can't erase. Could you fix it please? IMSLP:Haberler--Unal A 08:08, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

The problem were the spaces at the beginning of the lines. I have fixed it. By the way, it is recommended to sign your messages with four tildes ~~~~ This will automatically put your username and the time of your posting. You can also use the second button from the right at the top of the edit window. --Leonard Vertighel 08:03, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
ok. I forgot to sign. Thanks.--Unal A 08:08, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

Wikipedia interwiki

This message might interest you. Maybe you have already seen it, but I'm notifying you just to be sure. --Leonard Vertighel 10:08, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Nice! Thanks again for all your work on Wikipedia! :) --Feldmahler 14:32, 7 May 2007 (EDT)


Apology accepted. I left a message on the discussion page. One concern: that block you made on me was without a message in advance. I am originally from Wikipedia, and that's what the rule is there. If that's a rule of conduct here, that block doesn't look good on your record. I'm okay with it, but someone else may not. Marcus2 20:26, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

The reason I blocked immediately was because:
  1. If I didn't immediately block, and allowed you to change all the pages, then blocking would be pointless. The reason for blocking is because mass page changing (that would get reverted) does not make the server happy at all, but of course blocking would have no effect if the pages were already changed. If the mass changing has to be done then that's fine, but for ambiguous cases I'd rather the problem be sorted out before any mass change is made.
  2. I didn't notify you because I've told you before to notify an admin before mass changing pages. But I forgot to check the category of the composer in this case.
Hope this clarifies matters :) --Feldmahler 20:38, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Two questions

I'm contemplating creating a page listing all the piano études on this site (each entry linked to the sheet music of course), sorted by the technical problem each piece focuses on, e.g. études in thirds, octave studies, staccato studies, etc. (Of course, some études don't fall neatly into any one category.) Anyway, I thought I'd mention it and see what you thought of the idea.

That sounds like a great idea! I'm always for trying new things on IMSLP :)

Incidentally, I've wondered what you're studying - composition, performance, ? - and what instrument(s) you play. Don't mean to pry, just idly curious. Physicist 00:07, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm studying composition, though I do (supposedly) play the piano too haha... used to play the violin, but haven't touched it for a while unfortunately :/ --Feldmahler 00:24, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Complete Composer dates

Hi! I have noticed on some composer pages that only the year of birth/death is added and not the whole complete date. It have passed some time now since I last created a composer page, but is it by chance mentioned in the guideline that the whole birth/death date should be added? Because incomplete dates are some pretty heavy information leaved out... --Funper 18:44, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Hmm... I don't have that in the guidelines, but I can add them :) I'll probably do so now. --Feldmahler 19:10, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
By the way, this is a minor point, but we should find a way to internationalize the date. Using only numbers won't do, because there are different conventions for the order of day and month in different languages. Would a template with three numerical parameters (two of which optional) be a viable solution? In that case, I could implement it myself. --Leonard Vertighel 04:17, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Duplicate (deleting..)

Ballade No.2, S.171 (Liszt, Franz): #00402 and #04937 are the same edition, but the latter is of better quality. Delete #00402? --Funper 22:32, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

As long as it is a different scan, its better to keep it :) May come in handy when someone requires multiple points of reference for whatever reason. However, you can, if you wish, indicate that the latter is a better quality scan of the same edition on the page :) --Feldmahler 23:09, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Tag log?

This discussion seems to suggest that a tag log (i.e. a log of who tagged what when and how) could be useful. Would it be difficult to add it to the existing ones (deletions, page moves, etc...)? --Leonard Vertighel 17:53, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

IMSLP:Site development

I've set up this page to coordinate all aspects of the site development. The idea is that all discussion takes place in the forum, and the page is used to keep track of the discussions, and to summarize current status, decisions and proposals. I'd suggest that you integrate those things from your user page where community input and/or help from other coders are welcome. --Leonard Vertighel 06:13, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads up! :) By the way, not to rush things, but is there any more work that needs to be done on the new main page before it can go live? I like it very much and would like to see it go live :) --Feldmahler 13:41, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
Well, there have been some complaints that the intro section with the image feels unbalanced. Now I don't have any brilliant idea how to improve it, so we can either wait for proposals or live with it :) Apart from that, I have to redo the background image to make it lighter, since some found the text on top of it illegible. A few other things need to be fixed, and several placeholders replaced with the real content. If you want, I'll try to finish it in the next few days. --Leonard Vertighel 14:21, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
If you can do that that'd be great! Contrary to popular belief, book covers are important, and so are site front pages ;) --Feldmahler 14:24, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
P.S. I'd just live with it if there's no brilliant idea to fix it. If enough people see it, there may be a brilliant idea that will emerge ;) --Feldmahler 14:25, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
Obviously it gets shredded by IE6 (though actually less badly than I had feared), so it will require some more work (by now it seems perfectly natural to me that "heigth:17px" does not mean that the actual height of the element will be 17px in IE). I'm very busy these days, so I'll have to defer it at least until the weekend. --Leonard Vertighel 10:24, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Hahaha... well who would've guessed ;) In any case, take things at your own pace; nothing on IMSLP has a deadline... just don't forget about it haha :) --Feldmahler 14:08, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Bug Suite Bach for piano

Suites_for_Violoncello_Solo%2C_BWV_1007-1012_%28Bach%2C_Johann_Sebastian%29 File of transcription for piano is bugged

Fixed :) --Feldmahler 12:43, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

Catagory:Compositions Featuring Cello

Thanks for making it into a list on a page itself. How would it be possible to have the Category page automatically enter the pieces onto it? Right now I mannually searched and typed it in. But maybe there is a better ( faster) way to do it? Thanks --Generoso

Unfortunately, no :/ --Feldmahler 15:19, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

A few notes

Hi Feldmahler,

while I was investigating some MSIE issues with the new Main Page (I'm afraid that some minor quirks will remain), I found out that this Mediawiki installation currently outputs some invalid HTML code. These are really just minor issues, and I don't think that they are the cause of MSIE's misbehaviour, but you might nonetheless wish to fix them at some point. Basically, the 'id' attribute must be unique for each element as well as across the entire page. If you need them only for styling, you can use 'class' instead, which needs not be unique.

Ah... this is entirely my fault, and I'll fix them right away :)

Apart from this, a few stylistic remarks (see also the changes I have made to the temporary copy of the News section of the new Main Page):

  • In general, link texts like "here" etc. should be avoided. It has little importance in talk pages etc., but in places like the Main Page it is preferrable to have significant link texts that relate to the linked content.
  • It should be avoided to "overload" the visitors with information they are not likely to need. If a user has trouble downloading a file, in most cases he will not wish to read a long technical article. This is why I have reworded the News item in the new Main Page to put that link after the essential information, as a supplement for those few who will be interested in all the details.
Both are good ideas :)
  • Another reason for the above change was that one should avoid "sending away" his visitors, in particular on the Main Page. In general, external links should be used as sparingly as possible on the Main Page. (The forum doesn't count, since it's not really external - by the way, I believe that the forum lacks a link back to IMSLP.)
Agreed with the external link issue. For the forums... do you have any suggestions as to how to make the forum link back to the main page?
  • Maybe you should avoid using "I" on the Main Page. More than any other page, the Main Page is addressed to first time or occasional visitors, who will have no idea who "I" is in the first place. As an alternative, you could sign the news items that you write in the first person, so that "I" gets a clear meaning.
This is a very good suggestion. I'll avoid using 'I' in the News section from now on :)

These are obviously just suggestions, based on my (albeit very limited) experience in web design. --Leonard Vertighel 10:34, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

Well... your "very limited" experience is much more than my non-existant experience ;) --Feldmahler 15:19, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

For the forum link, Choralwiki has the CPDL logo in the top left corner linking to the wiki. I think that this is an acceptable solution. I don't know how to do it technically, but I can research that if you want me to. --Leonard Vertighel 17:26, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

submission formatting

Feldmahler, I understand your suggestions. I'll make sure to adhere to the things you outlined. thanks. Daphnis 11:25, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

Composer sorting with "de" preceeding last family name

Feldmahler, don't you think it would be best to alphabetize composers having a "de" preceeding their family name to not be sorted this way? de Falla should probably be under "F" and de Séverac under "S". Daphnis 11:32, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

I'll add this right now. --Feldmahler 15:19, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

de Falla looks ok, but somehow de Séverac is now at the end of the "S" section. Daphnis 16:41, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Hmm... I'll try to fix this, but its not going to be easy (I don't know of any existing functions which will convert letters with accents into normal letters...).

Placeholder upload error

Feldmahler, the reason why I haven't been uploading the placeholder pdf for works only PD in the US is because every time I try (following the instructions) it gives me an upload error citing the file as being corrupt or unreadable. Can you confirm this? Daphnis 16:41, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Well, I uploaded the placeholder fine at Image:Test.pdf. I think it may be that you have a corrupt placeholder for some reason; in the error log I have this:
USER:Daphnis LOG:Attempted to upload bad extension/MIME type - extension: pdf; MIME type: text/html
Seems to me like you may have accidentally downloaded a HTML page instead of the PDF file; try opening the placeholder file in a PDF reader (it should contain one blank page). If it doesn't open, try re-downloading it from the score submission guide. The links originally pointed to the wiki image page and not the files themselves, but I have changed this so that even if you save the links directly it should work (I'm thinking you might have tried to download the links directly instead of from the image page?). Hope this works! --Feldmahler 19:22, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
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