Category talk:Ravel, Maurice

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Works of Maurice Ravel will be in the public domain in France in January 1st, 2008. Yannf 06:15, 21 September 2007 (EDT)

Ehem...The copyright of Ravel is extended until 2015. In France. --Aewanko 22:58, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
Ravel is actually under copyright in France until 2022, "as of a previous temporary lapse across the mid 1980s to mid 1990s."1 Daphnis 02:53, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources Consulted

  • 1. Ravel Studies, edited by Deborah Mawer
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2010

not listed: Deux mélodies hébraïques (1914)

Quoting from the CD booklet for a selection of Ravel's works for violin and piano, Harmonia Mundi France HMC 901364 (P)1991, Régis Pasquier, violon, et Brigitte Engerer, piano:

"In writing the Deux Mélodies Hébraïques in May 1914, commissioned by [Saint Petersburg Opera soprano] Alvina Alvi ... [Ravel] was pursuing the process already begun with the Chanson Écossaise (1907), the Chansons Grecques (1909) and the Chansons Populaires (1910), and which was in the nature of an exercise in style... Kaddish, the first of the Mélodies Hébraïques, is a liturgical chant ... Ravel was to make several transcriptions of this long lament of spellbinding unfurling melismata, omitting the Aramaic words and retaining only the musical substance. Although he enlarged the vision of the piece in the orchestral version, here he returns to a contemplative expressiveness, giving the heart-rending melody to the violin while the extremely sparse piano accompaniment punctuates it with a few arpeggios and discreet chords."

Presumably these should be listed under Arrangements. There appears to be no Marnat number assigned. Milkunderwood 00:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Not quite sure I follow you here. There is a page for this composition and it is filed under 2 Mélodies hébraïques, and it does contain other transcriptions. Daphnis 00:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, that's because I'm being dumb. Instead of looking at all the entries, I just searched, but without putting in the French accents. Thanks. Accents will always throw off a search. Milkunderwood 01:09, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Which does raise the question, however, of whether this M. A 22 should not be listed under Arrangements instead, which is where I did look on the Category page. (I found this Marnat number from the link.) Milkunderwood 01:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Are you suggesting the piece itself is an arrangement of a prior composition? Otherwise, I still don't quite follow. Daphnis 01:25, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes - it's an arrangement of a Hebrew liturgical chant, and Marnat lists it as an arrangement. Milkunderwood 01:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Only to the extent that it uses certain vocal elements. The music and accompaniment−as sparse as it may be−are still original contributions and generally regarded as together a discreet composition in Ravel's œuvre. Daphnis 01:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll have to take your word for that. It's my impression that the chant itself uses a specific melody, which Ravel generally followed. Also, why else would Marnat regard it as an arrangement? Milkunderwood 01:43, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the cantorial version, but surely someone here will be. Milkunderwood 01:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I suppose this could be argued, but it would have to be determined how standardized the melody of this piece from the Jewish liturgy actually is. And even if it were fairly standard, this type of thing whereby a composer borrows from melodies or texts that are unattributed to any one author occurs fairly regularly. It should also be mentioned that Marnat's is only one cataloging system used for Ravel's works, and those systems are rarely employed outside of the respective author's own texts. For a composer who was as diligent and who produced so few works as Ravel, these systems aren't very helpful in my opinion. Daphnis 02:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for your help. Wikipedia says there are a number of different melodies used for the Kaddish, so there may not be any way to pin down Ravel's in any case; neither of the two Quicktime audios there sound very much like Ravel. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. Milkunderwood 02:25, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Keep as an original composition for Ravel. This follows precedents going from the L’homme armé masses of the Renaissance forward to e.g. the nearly contemporary Rachmaninov Vespers (1915). Cheers, Philip @ © talk 02:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Indeed. I am not aware of any scholarship devoted to unraveling (pun intended) the origins of the "Kaddish" as used by the composer. Orenstein has fairly little to say about it in his writings, so I'm just not sure. Daphnis 02:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I just want to say I very much appreciate both your explanations and your kind patience. Milkunderwood 02:43, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
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