User talk:Lyle Neff

Tchaikovsky, Op.41

Hello Lyle, I didn't know if you knew about the little WikiMedia tag "#", which can be a time-saver when you're putting in a movement listing like you just did for the above piece. It automatically generates the number, period and a single space after. It also aligns the numerals flush right, as you can see. On the other hand, if you know about this and prefer the appearance of the "*" tag, my apologies for changing it to "#". Carolus 13:08, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

• Yes, I think I already knew about that. But, dealing with operas and their listings, with sub-designations of "a), b)", etc., I just naturally went for the more direct indications. Automatic list numberings can be a problem, too, if some vandal comes in and sets them off kilter. Lyle Neff 17:04, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Dear Sir, when I download the score, the PDF file open, but...nothing appears on the pages ! What is the problem ? Thanks in advance ! Ludovsky 17:08, 27 December 2009

• Hello, I downloaded and opened the 2nd file on the page with no problem. I'm not sure what you need to do. Perhaps you need to download a newer version of Adobe Reader? You could also ask on one of the appropriate IMSLP forums. Lyle Neff 15:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Rimsky - Sadko

Dear Lyle, we're probably going to end up with separate workpages for the orchestral piece and the opera. I've been discussing the issue of multiple works using the same title - which seems to be a strange practice of more than one Russian composer - with P.davydov over at his talk page. Your input would be useful here, no doubt. Carolus 20:37, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Montagu-Nathan

I see he died in 1958, which means he's still protected in Canada (for less than 5 months now). You can go ahead and upload, we'll keep things locked until New Year, when he'll be let out of jail. Carolus 14:43, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Rimsky-Korsakov Principles of Orchestration

Lyle, I just saw you uploaded the Toc. Are you also planning on uploading the rest of his book? Fantastic contribution if so. Many thanks for you hard work and scans! Daphnis 15:00, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Yea, verily, I hope to do that. Chapter by chapter, if not in smaller increments. I'll probably submit the chapters of text in separate increments (as I have already done with the contents and prefaces), and lump all of the orchestral excerpts together in one file. Lyle Neff 15:08, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Balakirev Symphony

Lyle, just wanted to pop in to show my appreciation for this forgotten gem and to congratulate you on fine scans, something that is rare indeed. Do you plan on scanning more Balakirev works? They are, in my opinion, sorely neglected in comparison to other Russian masters. Daphnis 23:31, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Daphnis, I'm planning to scan Balakirev's 2nd Symphony soon. In addition, now that you've reminded me, somewhere I should have a photocopy of the original edition of the full score of his 2nd piano concerto in E-flat; I should scan that too sometime. Lyle Neff 14:50, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

Great! Any Balakirev is a very welcome addition. I hope you can upload any Russian music in addition to this! Daphnis 16:23, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

Khovanshchina

Hi Lyle,

I'm very interested in putting up the full score (Rimsky-Korsakov version, naturally) to this masterpiece sometime next year maybe and wanted to ask your input as far as edition, publisher etc. since you're much more an authority on Russian works than I. I noticed Kalmus has a reprint available. Would this be the best thing? Any info. or recommendations are welcome. Thanks again for all your contributions. Daphnis 15:12, 2 November 2008 (EST)

Hello, Daphnis -- I would guess the Kalmus reprint would be the most practical to use (and most economical if you can borrow it from a library, on interlibrary loan if necessary), but I've never seen that edition -- is it from Bessel? Lyle Neff 06:50, 3 November 2008 (EST)

I'm not sure. I was hoping you could fill me in on that. I'm having trouble finding the actual orchestral score(s) versus vocal. Daphnis 07:40, 3 November 2008 (EST)

Hi. I can't remember - is it Boris Godunov that was completed by Stravinsky and Shostakovich or was it Khovanshchina. I seem to remember one of them being incomplete, and therefore not PD.Snailey _{Yell at me Email me} 11:06, 14 January 2009 (EST)

I think you're talking about Khovanshchina where both Shostakovich and Rimsky-Korsakov completed the work. For our purpopses, obviously only the Rimsky-Korsakov version would be allowable. Any takers? Daphnis 11:38, 14 January 2009 (EST)

აბესალომ და ეთერი

Lyle,

Thanks for the Paliashvili scores. I've been trying, off and on, to find a complete copy for 20 years. Where did you find yours? (If you don't mind my asking.)

Is there any chance you could upload Orbeliani's French version of the 1941 libretto? I'm trying to work out a translation based on my barely literate Russian and all-but-nonexistent Georgian. The French would help me triangulate the meaning.

Спасибо болшой, დიდი მადლობა, and many thanks,
--FHB 19:46, 18 January 2009 (EST)Talk to me Email me

Hello. U.S. libraries hold the two editions of the piano-vocal score of Abesalom da Eteri that are uploaded. With regard to the omission of the French translation and other things, see the discussion on the IMSLP bulletin board.

You've reminded me of something: back when I was in undergraduate school, I started to write out an English translation of the Russian singing text printed in the p-v score of Daisi that I had managed to acquire. I don't know where that notebook is now! Lyle Neff 13:11, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Rimsky suites

Hello Lyle. Re your comment on Christmas Eve — "Reason for making separate page for the suite not given; even so, every other opera by this composer that has an orchestral suite should have the same courtesy" — this is indeed the case. All suites will now have their own pages, but this process will take a little while to complete. Those titles starting with the letters A to O are now done, but please be patient until all are finished. Thanks — P.davydov 16:59, 2 March 2009 (EST)

My comment was rhetorical. In general, I see no point in separating the suites from the operas that they came from. It's unnecessary creation of new pages and simply results in scattering and inflation. They are equivalent to "Excerpts...," which are routinely included with the main work on other work-pages. One might as well rhetorically ask why all excerpts aren't given their own pages as well, e.g., "Flight of the Bumblebee." Lyle Neff 12:29, 3 March 2009 (EST)

P.S. It does help to give a rationale/reason for a change like this at the point when it is done; otherwise, it looks arbitrary or capricious. Lyle Neff 12:35, 3 March 2009 (EST)

Hello Lyle. Just to explain that the changes are being made in line with the recent discussions on standards for work pages. The driving rationale behind this is that the structure and content of pages should be consistent and identifiable through a series of standard headings. This is essential so that Wikibots can be used to introduce global changes as required in the future, such as the facility to automatically translate standard headings depending on the language of the user, or to redesign the layout of the pages. And not least that it also improves clarity for the user, through having the files listed on a page in a consistent sequence, and their being visible in the contents box at the top of the page.

As you know, quite a few operas and ballets have orchestral suites, which may have been compiled by their composer or by others. These rarely constitute a simple series of "slices" from the larger work, played one after another, but they can differ significantly from the originals both in terms of scoring and musical content. This is certainly true of Rimsky's suites, where numbers were frequently edited, reorchestrated and linked with new material. It's also true of the Carmen suites, Tchaikovsky's ballet suites, and (it appears) all the opera suites I've encountered so far. As their creators intended them to have a distinct and separate existence from their parent works, with deliberate differences in scoring and musical content, it's hard to argue that there's not a convincing case for the suites having their own work pages. And it should certainly reduce the potential for confusion between, for example, "The Dance of the Sugar-Plum Fairy" as used in Tchaikovsky's ballet "The Nutcracker", and the abridged version with the same title used in the suite. The addition of cross-references between the suites and their parent works should also make these distinctions clear, where they may not have been before.

You're quite right that it would have been appropriate to add an explanation as to why the suites had been moved. The truth is that I did this the first few times until I thought a precedent had been established, but this was possibly a little presumptuous. I hope though that you will appreciate the rationale behind the changes (even if you don't agree with all of them), and will contribute to discussions of future standardization issues such as the best translteration system for Cyrillic scripts and work titles, which are matters we really need to get grips with before IMSLP becomes too big and unmanageable — P.davydov 13:55, 3 March 2009 (EST)

I can see separating the tone poem Sadko from the opera, because the tone poem was conceived first and is its own entity. However, if separate existence and substantial changes are governing criteria to give the suites their own work-pages, then it follows that we should make separate work-pages for different versions of an opera/oratorio/symphony, etc. But that would create considerable clutter on a composer page. Since I don't understand how this procedure relates to wikibots, global changes, etc., I still have to disagree in ignorance -- but politely. Lyle Neff 14:05, 3 March 2009 (EST)

Understood. Thank you -- P.davydov 14:49, 3 March 2009 (EST)

Polovtsian dances

Hello Lyle. Can you confirm that the full score of the Polovtsian Dances on the Prince Igor page is an orchestral arrangement of No.17 from the full score, and that this differs from the traditional concert version of the dances (including the maidens' dance, No.8 from the opera) for which the orchestral parts and Blumenfeld's piano transcription are shown on the same page? If that is the case, what would be your view about creating a separate page for the concert version of the dances, bearing in mind (a) the confusion caused by having scores for two different versions of the dances on one page; (b) the complex composition history of the opera; and (c) your general reservations about splitting work pages? — P.davydov 14:49, 4 March 2009 (EST)

As far as I know, that score is No. 17 of the opera, minus the voice (choral) parts. Even if it weren't, it would serve no purpose to give it a separate work-page. That's why we're using subheadings like "Excerpts" or "Transcriptions, arrangements", etc. -- that is, unless the plan is to do away wtih those in favor of separate "work" pages, in which case, total chaos would ensue. I strongly believe that the work is what is most important, not its parts. Lyle Neff 16:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)

Just to be clear, my suggestion is to move the concert (i.e. altered) version of the dances elsewhere, while leaving Rimsky's voiceless version of No.17 where it is, with the rest of the opera. But knowing that you were likely to take a different point of view, I wanted to see if we could agree an alternative solution for use here (and perhaps in other similar situations), without the need to create new pages. So in that spirit I hope you won't mind my asking the question again: as it appears that there are two different versions of the Polovtsian Dances represented on the "Prince Igor" page, do you have any suggestions as to the best way to avoid confusion between them? — P.davydov 17:19, 4 March 2009 (EST)

We could have subheadings with something like this hierarchy:

• Excerpts
  • Polovetsian Dances
    • Version with chorus
      • Full score
      • Piano-vocal score
    • Version for orchestra alone
      • Full score
      • Transcription for piano solo

(etc.)

The use headings in the outline-system on the work-pages should never be forgotten. Lyle Neff 18:01, 4 March 2009 (EST)

What I'm not entirely clear about is whether the parts currently listed for the Polovtsian Dances correspond to Rimsky's voiceless orchestration. My impression is that the parts belong to an extended version of the dances that is normally used in concert performance (with or withour voices), and so they don't match Rimsky's voiceless version. Can you confirm this? Thanks — P.davydov 05:24, 5 March 2009 (EST)

I've improved the hierarchy on the page. The orchestral parts say "с хором" at the top of No. 18. Although I've never actually made a note-by-note comparison, I wouldn't be surprised if R-K economized by making the orchestral parts exactly the same for both the choral and non-choral versions. (After all, his suite for Chrismas Eve has optional choral parts in it that are the choral parts from the opera.) Lyle Neff 06:49, 5 March 2009 (EST)

Thanks, that makes it much clearer, and avoids any need to put the dances on a separate page. I've applied the new standardised headings to the Prince Igor page (the main groupings for all operas should now be: (1) Full Scores; (2) Parts; (3) Vocal Scores; (4) Arrangements and Transcriptions). Parts, and extracts from the full and vocal scores should no longer be mixed up with arrangements, and unused headings are omitted. This is a little different than the system used previously, but it will pave the way for further developments... Thanks again for your help — P.davydov 10:13, 5 March 2009 (EST)

Cui

Hello Lyle. For a while now I've been checking the composer pages on IMSLP against the Library of Congress authorities, Grove Online and (less authoritively) Wikipedia, to make sure that the names we use conform to the versions used in at least one of these sources. Reaching the "C"s today, I found that all three sources prefer the form "César Cui", i.e. without the patronymic, and this is the version now almost universally employed in electronic library catalogs. In view of this, would you have any objection if the IMSLP name were changed from "César Antonovich Cui" to "César Cui"? — P.davydov 05:48, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't see the need to change it. The Grove Online entry does at least include the patronymic in the transliteration directly alongside the French form. (The Grove entries for Rimsky-Korsakov and Balakirev does include the patronymics, but IMSLP strangely omits it, unlike Musorgsky and Borodin). As one who does not tend to go for change for the sake of change, I'd prefer to keep "César Antonovich Cui" with redirect to that name from "César Cui" in case someone inputs that search. Lyle Neff 06:36, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

As you've done so much work with the Cui pages I wouldn't propose making a major change you were unhappy with. The current IMSLP search facility doesn't pick up redirects anyway (although I understand Feldmahler may be working on that), but I'll add "César Cui" to the list of alternate names on the category pages, so that at least external search engines will pick it up more easily — P.davydov 06:56, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

The redirects weren't working for me for many weeks recently, but now seem to be working fine. Just enter "Rimsky" in the search box, and it should redirect to the composer's category page. Lyle Neff 13:14, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

If I try that and press the "Comp." button, then it brings up a list with Rimsky-Korskov's category page at the top as the only "Article title match". But pressing "imslp.org" or just the enter key instead brings up a seemingly random list of pages with "Rimsky" in the title ("To the Poet, Op.45 (Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai)" being top. A similar search for "César Cui" brought up a list with "César Franck" at the top (!). Maybe Feldmahler can advise? — P.davydov 14:24, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

I just use the standard "Find" box (the one that has "Go" and "Search" buttons under it) and hit return. Lyle Neff 15:18, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

Thanks, but I can only see the "search" box in the left sidebar, which has four buttons underneath ("imslp.org", "Comp.", "IMSLP#" and "PLMP#"). Where should I be looking? — P.davydov 17:00, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

Thanks

Hi Lyle, I'd just like to take a minute to say thanks for posting your own music here. Your numerous contributions are excellent, and It's always encouraging to see folks posting their own compositions. Here's hoping for lots of interested performers dowloading your pieces! Best Wishes, Carolus 17:45, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

You're welcome, Carolus. I figured these first three pieces that I've uploaded are over 30 years old and in no danger of actually being issued by a real publisher; so they might as well be made available on IMSLP. Lyle Neff 18:10, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Ippolitov-Ivanov

Thank you so much for being able to track this one down and scan it! Большое спосиба and Tusen takk! I'm a bit uncertain about the english translation of the title. Nordland is a county of Norway; it's the thin part connecting the northermost part with the southern part. What do you think? Asj 15:21, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

You're welcome. I was going with the translated title in Grove Music Online. If you want to move the page to the title "Ole from Nordland," please feel free (and adjust the other titles accordingly). Lyle Neff 18:29, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Recordings

I have some comments over at the Forum. Look at the Cui Op.40 page and see what you think about the visibility issue, etc. Either way is fine with me, there are minor plusses and minuses for doing the links either way. Carolus 12:54, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

-In a Monastery (Rimsky-Korsakov)

GiulioP 09:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC) H Lyle! First of all thanks for submitting the Fugue of Rimsky-Korsakov, "In a Monastery". Do you know if it is still under copyright? I'd like to know where this piece come from: is it a movement of a string quartett?

thanks again!

Giulio

Sorry I'm late in responding. This movement was originally the 4th movement from a string quartet from 1876; the 1st three movements of that quartet were transformed into the Sinfonietta on Russian Themes in A minor, ор. 31 (1884-1885). It would be interesting to hear the Sinfonietta movements in their original form; but I don't know whether that still exists. If it doesn't, it might be possible to reconstruct the string-quartet version. Lyle Neff 17:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

searching for obscure Russian composer

Hi Lyle, I recently had an interesting bar conversation with a gentleman about a recording of some little-known Russian composer who, it was said, only had one substantial orchestral work and died at the young age of ca. 24 years. This does not ring a bell for me and am appealing to your vast knowledge of Russian musicians to see if you might have any ideas as to the identity of this composer. Many thanks! Daphnis 00:55, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

noautotag

Hi Lyle,

No longer needed to prevent the nasty red warning when you add a new work. The annoying bug is now gone (it has been gone for a while, actually). I periodically check Ebay for your name (among others). The wild people there seem to be behaving themselves of late. Carolus 04:11, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Cui: Songs

Thanks for moving those back to their proper titles. It was on my list of things to do, but now I can cross it off. Carolus 01:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)