IMSLP talk:Categorization/Project Members/archive13

Zither

Admittedly it's a book and not a zither solo work (of which there were plenty, most probably arrangements, to judge from the large Zither section in many early-1900s issues of HMB), but Die Elemente des Zitherspiels in Theorie und Praxis (Rudigier, Paul) - a work on the performance of the zither - notes '2 players' because of the zither solo in the tags. Do zithers take 2 people to play? I don't know, sincerely... Eric 04:30, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Single player; Anton Karas managed to play his score for Carol Reed’s film “The Third Man” as a solo instrumentalist. ;-) Philip Legge _{@ © talk} 06:04, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, no second (or third) man required for this one. The zither entry had been put in the wrong place in our master list, but it's fixed now — P.davydov 10:16, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Smith, Stanzas from the Nativity

Just noticed that this was tagged "sacred songs" and I'm curious because "sacred songs" in the tagging list is supposed to be tagged "sacred cantatas", which is how I remember it was when we started. There was also "sacred choruses" if it is for choir. Has something changed, and if so, shouldn't "sacred songs" be changed in the list so that it is a tag itself? (Steltz)

Yes, Perlnerd666 successfully lobbied for "sacred songs" around 6 months ago, for religious works that involve solo voice and piano. This shouldn't be applied to the Smith piece though, because it's a choral work, so "sacred choruses" would be correct, so thanks for picking that up. I thought "sacred songs" had been added to our tagging list, but will check... — P.davydov 06:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

My goof, I think. Eric 02:43, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

bandoneon

Is a bandoneón close enough to an accordion to be tagged as such? Wikipedia describes it as a sort of concertina. (Steltz)

Yes, I'd go with "acc" — P.davydov 18:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Cymbalom

Found in Ragtime (Stravinsky, Igor). How about 'cbm'? KGill _{talk email} 17:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm surprised (apologies for irrelevant comment) that it seems many of the 'classical/Western...' chamber and concertante works featuring cimbalom/cymbalom are by even later composers (like Kurtag (still alive I think?) and Zdenek Lukas (d.2007), among others.) Had thought otherwise for some reason. Eric 17:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to be used as a solo instrument in Stravinsky's work, which looks like it's for a small orchestra from the instrument listing (not being in the US I can't download it to check). It only needs a tag if it's a solo instrument, and "cimb" would be my suggestion — P.davydov 18:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

It's often called "Ragtime, for 11 instruments", according to answers.com anyway- I'll check other sources later!... implying doubling not allowed though? as might be the case for a work for small orch. I'll download and check too. (Have to do some things and hurry, really just checking in :) ) Eric 18:41, 18 January 2011 (UTC) (also: "Stravinsky's RAGTIME, a concertino for cimbalom, 9 solo instruments and percussion" - from ChesterNovello page)

It is indeed for 11 solo instruments, not really for a small orchestra (includes solo strings, not string sections). Admittedly I don't have any sources apart from the score to back this up, but I imagine it would almost certainly be considered a chamber piece for unusual ensemble rather than a mini-orchestral one. I changed it to 'cimb'; thanks for the responses. Cheers, KGill _{talk email} 22:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Krygell, Organ-Concert

Does this really translate as concerto? It could also be like a concert piece, especially since it's for one person. (Steltz)

"Concerto" would be the usual trsnslation, and it's not the only one we have for a solo performer — P.davydov 06:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

patriotic hymns

I tagged Méhul's Hymne patriotique as a secular hymn, since it isn't to a deity or saint. I know we had this discussion before, but I thought we had decided to add "secular hymns" to the list, and I don't see it there. (Steltz) [edit: it has come up as a secular hymn at the bottom of the work page, so it was added. Can we add it to the list, with a note by the "hymns" tag to also see "secular hymns"? Thanks. (Steltz)]

Agreed and done — P.davydov 06:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Amazing Grace

This is both generic and specific. Generic: how should we tag hymns and folksongs whose origins are so old that it's impossible to get an original instrumentation? Specific: according to a Wikipedia article (possibly not reliable) it is known when this was composed, but not if it was accompanied, and may have been chanted, not sung. Actually, since these types of hymns or songs can be, and probably were originally, done with flexible accompaniment, "v open" seems appropriate, but they can be sung alone as well. Perhaps "v ; v open"? In the case of Amazing Grace, since seems to have been composed for a specific church service, "ch ; ch open"(Steltz)

That's a good point. I think in cases like this there's a strong argument for omitting the instrumentation tags altogether, since the page is never going to include the composer's definitive score, which in all other cases is what we're tagging. So we'd just have "hymns ; en", and the arrangements, which are automatically tagged in any case — P.davydov 10:27, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Done. (Steltz)

Foote, Flower Songs

These are specifically female voice, only no.3 is uploaded so far, and the uploader says the only versions he knows are for no.3 -- soprano and alto, but he doesn't know about the others. Is there anyway to tag a generic female voice, and should we consider this? In the meantime, I've tagged "sop pf ; alt pf", but I am a bit concerned that if other versions come up it won't necessarily be re-tagged. If I see a new file is already tagged from a previous edition, I don't really check the tag against everything on the page to see that the tag is still correct, and I'm sure most of don't really have time to. In other words, once something is tagged, it is likely to "escape radar" as far as possible corrections goes . . . (Steltz)

Solo songs often appear in a variety of transpositions for different voices, and if we're unsure of the composer's original specification then "v pf" is acceptable — P.davydov 17:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've tagged it as "v pf", but I still would like to know if there is a way to tag for a gender of a voice, e.g. "female voice". (Steltz)

The short answer is 'no', so unless the composer is specific about the range then we just use "v pf" — P.davydov 16:04, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Tonoli, Da-ba-da-baduba and others

This, and also Il nostro ultimo valzer, Danza romantica, Eravamo Giovani, Capodanno a Budapest, has an instrumentation of "pianoforte-fisarmonica".  ????? (Steltz)

These look like pieces for accordion (Italian: "fisarmonica") with piano, so we should use "acc pf" — P.davydov 16:09, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, I'm half-way through the Tonolis, and will finish soon. (Steltz)

jazz tags

The Tonoli jazz pieces that are for piano solo I have tagged as "jazz ; pf" and it comes up as "Scores with open instrumentation | Jazz | Scores featuring the piano | For piano | For 1 player". Is there a reason for an open instrumentation tag if the instrumentation was specified? (Steltz)

"jazz" is a specific tag for multi-player works with lead sheets and without fixed instrumentation. Works written out in full for a single instrument wouldn't meet this definition, but looking at Route 128 (Tonoli, Giampietro), for example, the pianist is expected to improvise on a very basic set of instructions. So while it doesn't fit our tag for "jazz" because there's only one performer involved, "improvisations" might be more appropriate — P.davydov 09:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

done. (Steltz)

Muttusvami Diksita, Maha Ganapathim

This is in Sanskrit, we may have discussed this language before, but I can't remember. Is there an abbreviation for it? (Steltz)

I think the list of all things we have tags for at the moment- I think! - is at MediaWiki:Genres#Tags and Sanskrit is not there... erm- (ok, read up on Sanskrit) (I see now that M Diksita is the composer's name but ok, that was only unclear to me...) Eric 21:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The code "sa" for Sanskrit has now been added to the list of tags — P.davydov 22:02, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

category for cabaret songs?

I'm trying to tag Satie's songs. Grove lists several of them as "Cabaret songs". Should we create a separate tag for this? (Steltz)

Reading up on this, they just seem to have been songs that were performed at the local cabaret when Satie worked there as a pianist. As they work on their own as independent songs, and don't form part of a larger spectacle, I think we should stick to "songs" — P.davydov 09:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Chalamela Varnam

This has been typeset by P. Ananth. He has put both the words in, and also some fingerings that apply if you want to play it on violin. It was, though a vocal piece originally, so I have to tag is as a vocal piece. On my User talk page (http://imslp.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Steltz&redirect=no) he does a lot of explaining. The bottom line, though, is that the one typeset will work for instrumental and vocal. He says "I've included some fingering for violin, only for 3 notes in measure 4; otherwise it's not transcribed or arranged for violin in any way" but the only way it will show on the lists for both vocal and violin is if I tag it for the original (vocal) and then add the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" hierarchy for the violin. I can add a note saying that vocalists can use the same music. Any other ideas on how to do this? Steltz 04:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

After a discussion on the forums I've tagged this piece as best I can, with "varnams" as the work type, "open" instrumentation, and "te" for Telugu language — P.davydov 09:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Gabriel Pierné, Entrée dans le style classique

I tagged this as "pieces" but in retrospect I wonder if "entrée" isn't the same as an "intrada". Should I change the tag? Steltz 06:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'm persuaded  :-) — P.davydov 08:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Which way? Leave, or change? Steltz 09:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Change — P.davydov 09:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Haydn, Seven Last Words

Two questions: 1) this was originally a purely orchestral piece, with the vocal parts added later. As an orchestral piece it is just "pieces", but as a choral work it is an oratorio. In order to get it to show up on the oratorio lists, I tagged it "pieces ; oratorios ; orch ; sop alt ten bass orch ; de". Or should I give it the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" header -- technically more correct, but then it won't show under oratorios. 2) Grove lists the instrumentation of the choral work as "S, A, T, B, 4vv," etc. Does this mean 4 solo voices plus choir? Steltz 06:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Becky, it is four solo voices plus choir in each of the choral movements aside from the one depicting an earthquake. Philip _{@ © talk} 07:07, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Philip -- the tag for instrument is correct, then. All I still need to know is if it is OK to tag the choral version (even though it was an arrangement of the original orchestral work) in order to have to show up on the oratorios list. Steltz 08:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

If we treat this as a work whose "1st version" was for orchestra, but which was revised later for voices and orchestra ("2nd version"), then the oratorio tag would be OK. Otherwise it would be unusual for an arrangement to change the work type of a piece, but no doubt there are examples elsewhere... — P.davydov 08:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Grainger, Molly on the Shore

This is blocked, so I can't download and see what I need to. It is a folksong arrangement, and the folksong isn't original to Grainger. If the orchestral arrangement has added material, then it should stay on its own page. If it is just the folksong, it needs to go on a page with the composer as anonymous, or traditional, or something like that. Does anyone know the Grainger arrangement well enough to say whether it is a folksong, or an original work based on a folksong? In the meantime, I have tagged it as a folksong with no instrumentation added (original instrumentation for folksongs being difficult to pin down). Steltz 09:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The Library of Congress indicates that Grainger made settings of this folksong for string quartet or string orchestra (1907), violin and piano (1907), full orchestra or theater orchestra (1913), wind band (1920) and two pianos, four hands (1947), although this differs slightly from Wikipedia's listing. Some, or possibly all, of these versions were published in a collection of "British Folk-Music Settings". Unfortunately the file uploaded to IMSLP is only public domain in the US, so I can't look at it either to determine which version it is, but I'll ask the uploader for clarification... — P.davydov 09:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Perlnerd666 says that it's described on the title page as "For String Band, Full Orchestra, or Theatre Orchestra". The fact that the orchestral arrangement is credited to someone else is a little puzzling, but I've added "orch" to the tag, which will cover both the full and theatre orchestra versions — P.davydov 16:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Bouillet, Divertissement for piano 8-hands

For some reason, although this is tagged "pf8h", it is coming up as both 8-hands and 6-hands, when there isn't even an arrangement for 6-hands. Is something wrong here? Steltz 09:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Fixed — P.davydov 09:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Debussy, La damoiselle élue

Grove Music lists this as a "poème lyrique". It has voices (the page says 2 solo voices, Grove says 1 soprano) and choir. Tag as "symphonic poems"? Steltz 17:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that this subtitle refers to the source poem by Rossetti. Debussy's piece is usually described as a cantata, so would it be stretching a point to tag it as a secular cantata, rather than the generic 'pieces'? — P.davydov 18:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

It seems to fit better than symphonic poems, so unless anyone objects, it will be a secular cantata. Steltz 20:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)