IMSLP talk:Categorization/Project Members/archive10

Contents


Rachmaninov, Vespers

This piece is in Russian Church Slavonic. Is that the same as Slovene, i.e. tag "sl"?

Hi Steltz. For this we use the ISO code for Church Slavonic, which is "cu" (again, no idea of the derivation!) — P.davydov 07:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Bremner, Scots songs

Whoever uploaded this listed the language as English, Scots. Is there such a language as Scots? Or is this likely to be a dialect of English? (Steltz)

In this case the language of the work is English, so fortunately we don't need to worry that the original folksongs might have been in one of the two Scottish native languages — P.davydov 07:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Another question -- do they get tagged as folksongs because they're regional, or do we not assume a folk quality about them? (Steltz)
I'd say that if the origins of the text and the tune are lost in the mists of time, then that should be sufficient. But if the authors of the original words and/or tune are known then it doesn't qualify as a folksong, no matter how old or nationalistic it may be (e.g. "Rule Britannia") — P.davydov 16:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Mendelssohn transcriptions by Friedrich Hermann

These don't show up on Mendelssohn's page at all, should they? They are transcriptions of his Lieder and Gesange. Do I download and see if there is anything original to Hermann? (Steltz)

This set comprises various songs by Mendelssohn from different dates/opus that were arranged for piano duet by Hermann. Under our style guidelines for arrangements and transcriptions this compilation is treated as a work by Hermann, and should be tagged according to his original title Lieder und Gesänge von Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, i.e. "lieder ; songs ; pf4h". (There should be cross-references from each of the Mendelssohn song pages to this transcription, but that's outside the scope of the tagging project so don't worry about it now) — P.davydov 08:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. This brings up another question, though -- I noticed a while back that the "lieder" tag brings up "songs | lieder" so when a German piece is "Lieder und Gesange" I haven't been putting in "songs" separately because it comes up anyway. Should I have been? (Steltz)
Good point, I'd forgotten that "lieder" automatically brings up "songs" as well, so it isn't actually necessary to include them both — P.davydov 17:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Two more languages, Esperanto and Tagalog

Abelardo's Nasaan ka irog has Tagalog as the first language listed, and the title is clearly not spanish, his second language listed. Is there a tag for this, or should I just use Spanish? Also, I can't remember the piece now (I'll find it again in the untagged pages if someone doesn't get to it first), but there was something in Esperanto. (Steltz)

At least it makes a change from English and German! The code for Esperanto is "eo", and Tagalog is "tl" (that's lower-case "TL") — P.davydov 17:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

theory books

Draeseke's Die Lehre von der Harmonia is a set of lessons, which we have a tag for. Harmonies on the other hand, are small wind band so that won't do, and "harm" is a harmonium. Time to come up with tags, I'm afraid. Is it going to be too broad to start with "th" for theory and "hs" for history? The Draeseke will then be "|Tags=lessons ; th ; de". (Steltz)

I think we should be consistent and keep the abbreviations just for instrument names and languages. If Draeseke's book is a set of lessons for wind band then "lessons ; ww ; de" or "lessons ; ww br ; de" would be appropriate — P.davydov 10:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I think it really is a book on harmony as in music theory, though I will download it tomorrow and check. In the meantime, we probably do have other books on theory, so we need to think of a tag, and then define what would fall under it. (Steltz)
I also think that's what Die Lehre von der Harmonia in Lustige Reimlein gebracht is about - anycase it's available for download also from Draeseke.org, though I thought mistakenly there was some writing there about it (as there is about his compositions. He wrote two books about music at least - Lehre and also Die Konfusion in Der Musik (also available at the same site, perhaps we already have that from there too though- not sure.), a reactionary criticism of early-20th century musical trends, I believe.) There is a brief quote from Die Lehre at the Draeseke.org page here - http://www.draeseke.org/news/200604news.htm Eric 22:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

violin making

A subject tag for this is needed: would this fall under organology? The first one I need to tag is by Angeloni, Il liutaio is about violin making. (Steltz)

OK, how about "organology ; vn"? That would place it in the category "For violin" (which may be no bad thing), and allow the category walker to display the instruments involved within the wider "organology" category — P.davydov 10:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Good idea, the instrumentalists will need to be able to pull up any book or treatise on other aspects of their instruments. (Steltz)

temperament

Asioli's "Observazioni sul temperamento . . ." is a treatise on temperament. Would tuning go under theory? (Steltz)

If it's in relation to specific instruments then I'm wondering about "organology" for this one too, but a more general discussion about the principles then we could use "treatises" — P.davydov 10:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I will download it tomorrow and have a look at it
It looks like equal-temperament tuning for keyboard instruments specifically, which would be "organology ; kbd", but see what you think — P.davydov 12:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

musical expression

Avison's Essay on Musical Expression: this is likely to be very generic for all instruments, though I will download it and check. We probably need something for performance art or performance-related subjects. (Steltz)

I've just had a look, and it covers topics as diverse as "On the analogies between music and painting" and "On the expressive performance of music in parts". Following our principle of using the composer's (author's) title, "essays ; en" would seem the logical tag. Would you agree? — P.davydov 12:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
That's good, but I was hoping for a category such as "performance practice" to help narrow it down a bit, just like organology pegs the subject to something more specific. (Steltz)
Hmmm. It's possible that people will think that "performance practice" refers to methods of performing on particular instruments, and I'm not sure it fits the broadly philosophical approach of the first half of Avison's book. But see what you think when you're able to download it next week — P.davydov 16:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hatte

is listed by Grove as a "vocal concerto", though the word concerto is not on the music. Our generic for this sort of thing is "sacred cantata". Tag as cantata or concerto? (Steltz)

Reluctantly, I'd have to say "concertos" on the basis of Grove's description, and in the absence of any other evidence — P.davydov 12:10, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I've tagged it as a concerto, but like you, I'm also a bit reluctant . . . (Steltz)

musettes

I can't remember if this has come up before, but a musette is a small bagpipe, popular in France in the 17th century. We don't have a tag for this, but we don't have one for bagipes either. If we create a bagpipe tag, would it suffice for anything of the sort? E.g. some sort of skin (animal or otherwise) with lots of udder-like things coming out of it that honks a lot?  ;-))) (Steltz)

Isn't there an old saying that "A gentleman is someone who knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't" ? Anyway, how about "bag" as the tag for bagpipes, musettes, and maybe chalumeaux as well? — P.davydov 18:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Oh, not a bag for the chalumeaux!!! (but I like the bag part for the others!!) (Steltz)
There's also the musette piece (often used as a trio in gavottes and suchlike, and famously in the trio of the second movement of Beethoven's A minor string quartet - the idea of the piece being high melody over a low held drone, evoking the musette instrument - have encountered at least one piece (outside of larger works) called musettes, but so far they've been arrangements of other works. If there is a musette tag that refers to the instrument though hopefully there won't be troubles though :)! Eric 22:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

@P.Davydov: Chalumeaux=Proto-Clarinet, I believe (vis. Gluck)
@Schissel: A Musette is just "Gavotte II" with exactly the characteristics you described. Eventually, instead of Menuet I, Menuet II, people called the second "Trio" even thought it was just another minuet...confuses me every time...-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 22:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I doubt the extra definition of "musette" will cause problems, especially as every instrument that type will be tagged "bag". P.S. a chalumeau is indeed the predecessor to the clarinet! With even a relatively large (considering the lateness of its appearance) amount of Baroque music for it!! :-)) (Steltz)

Haydn London Trios

In tagging, I discovered one of the London Trios for 2 flutes and cello, which I had asked for a few weeks ago. We have an arrangement of no.1 for flute, violin, and cello. I've tagged it for the original instrumentation, and added the Arrangements and Transcriptions hierarchy to take care of the arrangement. Next I need to deal with the work page title. There are 4 Trios, HobIV:1-4. Would it be preferable to have them all on one page? I think there are some editions that put all four in one, so if each has a separate page, it might involve hassles in scanning and dividing up the scans. (Steltz)

Esquisses

I believe this should be "mapped" on the Tagging page to 'sketches'- right now they get tagged as pieces, but it's just "sketches" in French, I think? (It doesn't come up at all often!) Eric 19:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

And they've not come up before :-) If you tag them as "sketches" that should do the trick. Thanks — P.davydov 20:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I have tagged several as pieces in the past, not seeing "esquisses" on the chart. Is there any way to do a global check and catch the ones that should be changed to "sketches"? (Steltz)
Only by searching for the words "Esquisse" or "Esquisses" using the IMSLP search box in the left-hand panel. Fortunately there don't seem to be that many.
When the job is done (and we are getting close), we could review the contents of the "Pieces" category, and see if there are grounds for creating new tags that weren't on the original MLA list — P.davydov 05:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Rudiments of Music

Our first book of rudiments to be tagged, by A. Adgate, covers the most basic theory and sol-fa syllables. What would be the suggested tag for this? Is "theory" too vague? (Steltz)

books about history, Burney

Burney's books refer. "History" is a recognized subject in all the cataloguing systems I know of, so that could probably be a tag, especially for his "General History of Music". But he also wrote "The present state of music in France and Italy", and "The present state of music in Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Provinces". These could also be considered history, since they capture the musical culture at a specific point in history. His last one that we have is "Memoirs of the Life and Writings of the Abate Metastasio". This probably should go under "biography". Any other opinions? (Steltz)

I'd say "biography" is fine for the latter, with "music history" and/or "music theory" for the others. Maybe the latter could serve for Adgate's Rudiments as well? — P.davydov 21:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Beethoven's letters

This is biographical, but "letters" in itself is a studied sub-category. Could this be "letters ; biography"? (Steltz)

'correspondence' might be better than 'letters', as it's a standard library sub-heading. But if they're included as part of a biographical study then "biography ; correspondence" would be fine — P.davydov 07:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

double choir

Should a double choir be tagged "ch ch"? In this case, Schmitt's Hymne à l'Eté, but I think I've seen others as well. (Steltz)

2ch perhaps? KGill talk email 21:01, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, "2ch" has already been used quite a lot — P.davydov 22:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Milozvuk, sbirka popievaka za mladež obojega spola (Zajc, Ivan)

My knowledge of eastern languages is pretty nonexistent, but I found the translation for one of the words in the score in the Croatian dictionary. Could someone just double check that it really is Croatian, and then work out what the language tag should be? I've tagged the rest. (Steltz)

I've assumed it's Croatian and tagged it accordingly, but our style guide recommends that the page title should be in English. What's your best translation? :-) — P.davydov 16:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Ha! I remembered our local classical radio station has a Croatian announcer, and that I'd met her last year through a friend. Through the wonders of Facebook, I had a translation in a couple of hours. Gentle Sounds: Collection of songs for the young people of both genders. Re-direct done! (Steltz)
@Davydov - not to derail this too much, but are you sure that we should change non-standard titles like this to English? Doing it for common work types makes sense, but I don't think anyone's going to look under 'Gentle Sounds' when it says 'Milozvuk' on the score (especially as different people may translate it differently). KGill talk email 22:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. I'll change back to "Milozvuk"... — P.davydov 07:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Depending what the general consensus is, they can just be swopped -- the english can go in the alternative work title, too. At least we now have both of them. (Steltz)

Es ist vollbrach, Beethoven

I've tagged this as a secular chorus -- it was written as a finale for a singspiel, but Beethoven didn't write the whole singspiel, only parts of it -- Hummel also wrote some of it. My understanding is that if it is tagged singspiel, it means Beethoven wrote the whole thing. Is that correct? (Steltz)

I think "singspiels" is OK, as it's intended as part of one, regardless of whether there was more than one author — P.davydov 16:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
However, the tag is singspiele :) Eric 22:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Just making sure you were paying attention ;-) — P.davydov 05:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Fauré, La Naissance de Venus

Fauré describes this as a "Scène mythologique". Would that make it a secular cantata or a secular oratorio? (Quite long, at 68 pages, solo voices, chorus, piano). (Steltz)

I'd be inclined to use "secular cantatas" for this one — P.davydov 16:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

solo voices in addition to choir

In this case, Le chant de la nuit, Schmitt, but there are others -- if it is known that the 4 soloists are SATB, is it better to tag "sop alt ten bass ch orch" or "4vv ch orch"? (Steltz)

If the solo parts are known then they should be included in full. Then as well as being included in the category "For 4 voices, mixed chorus and orchestra", but also in the soloist categories "Works featuring the soprano voice", "Works featuring the alto voice", etc. — P.davydov 19:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Chants et basses or Basses et chants

Trying to tag Schmitt. This one is under a TB block so I can't just look at it, though I see in Durand's catalogue that there are a lot of this called "Chants et basses" or the reverse. What is "basses" in this context? (Steltz)

For 12 Chants et Basses d'harmonie, Op.81B (Schmitt, Florent), the individual pieces in Edition A alternate between being for just a bass line (not one bass singer, since there are occasional fifths) and for a melodic line (in soprano clef, interestingly). It reminds me of figured-bass exercises that say either to write upper voices for a given bass voice, or to write lower voices for a given soprano voice (although there are no chord symbols here). This hypothesis was confirmed when I had a look at Edition B and saw that he fleshed all of them out for mixed choir (sopranos, contraltos, tenors, and basses). KGill talk email 21:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Schmitt, op.81a and 81b

This is a follow on from the "chants et basses" question. We have this as op.81b. Grove Music lists nothing of the sort, and their op.81 is just that, there is no "a" appendage. We have it under "6 Choeurs, op.81a". We only have no.4, so probably not the full title page, but in any case, it's also under the TB block. First prize is if anyone knows anything about these. Second prize I suppose is a suggestion as to how to tag them, or what to do about a seemingly non-existent opus number. (Steltz)

As no-one can see those pages anyway, I think we've no option but to leave them untagged :-( — P.davydov 19:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The piece we have (on the page for Op.81a) appears to be on some sort of Muslim text (by 'YKS'). The score is for sopranos, contraltos, and (non-optional) piano. Also, it just gives 'Op.81. No IV' at the top of the page; I don't know where 'Op.81a' came from, but I think it might be better to abandon it. KGill talk email 21:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Beethoven, Revisionsbericht

This is a report on revisions to the supplement volumes of Beethoven's works. It is by Mandyczewski. I don't think it's really theory or history. What would a good tag be? (Steltz)

We need to think carefully about what to do with these types of supplements and prefaces to critical editions. Do they belong in the composer categories at all? If so, should they be added to the pages for the works they are concerned with, or stand independently? I'm not sure... — P.davydov 12:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

In this case, putting these on the pages for the works they are concerned with would involve someone splitting the PDF. This is an awful lot of work, since it is a large file, although it would be very nice. I don't know if there is any relevancy (for Mandyczewski, I suppose) in keeping it together as a document. Any other ideas and opinions? (Steltz)

Indeed, it's not practical to split a file where several works feature on a single page, but the file could be copied to each of the pages for the works it deals with. (Sorry for that clumsy sentence!) — P.davydov 15:40, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Mozart, mechanical organ

Is this a normal organ? In other words, is the tag "org"? (Steltz)

I think it's something of a musical clock created, I think, by a Count Dehm for whom Mozart wrote these works. Alfred Einstein discusses this in Mozart: His Character, His Work p. 269 or so (here or so ) for instance. Eric 04:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
After reading up on the subject, should this be placed in a separate category for mechanical instruments: "mech" (a counterpart to our "elec")? — P.davydov 10:30, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
I've used "morg" for mechanical organ, which is part of a new category for mechanical instruments — P.davydov 13:58, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Tolbecque, L'Art du Luthier

I've tagged this "organology" but it would be nice to indicate that it is for strings. Problem is, if I put in a "str" tag it says it's for string orchestra. We may have to leave out an instrument tag, but does anyone have any ideas? (Steltz)

Instead of "str" you could put in the names of each of the instruments he describes, separated by semi-colons. For example, "lute ; vn ; va ; vc" — P.davydov 09:52, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Guo, Analysis of the first movement of Mozart's K.465

At 12 pages, this is more like an essay, but the tag "music theory" is bringing it up as a book. Any way around this? (Steltz)

I've changed the name of the category "Books" to "Writings", which should accommodate these types of shorter works. It might take a couple of days for the change to work through the system — P.davydov 10:11, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

language translations

Though the tag for instrumentation must be the original, how are we dealing with translations in songs? I've tagged Kjerulf's Am dunklen See for german and english even though there's a translator listed for the english. I don't see any other way for english to come up as a searchable language, or am I missing something? (Steltz)

The tag should only reflect the language of the original work, but there is a "|Language=" field that can be used in the publication field for a particular score. Although this field isn't currently searchable, there's no technical reason why it couldn't be so in the future... — P.davydov 08:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to look at a way of searching it, otherwise there will be many, many pieces not found in the language the person is searching for. In the meantime, I will remove the english tags for the translations. (Steltz)
If we can standardize the way the information is presented on every page then there shouldn't, in theory, be any limit on which fields can be searched. I think there are others working to do that now... — P.davydov 16:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

À travers chants (Berlioz, Hector)

Books like À travers chants (Berlioz, Hector) are, it seems, collections of past (i.e. first published in journals, I think, like le Journal des Débats in this case?) music criticism by the author (like Debussy's Monsieur Croche, iirc). Is there already a good tag to put these under (do we use treatises for this, e.g.) or would it be good to create a 'music criticism' tag for this and new examples? Eric 13:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

That seems a good idea, so long as everyone's OK with that? — P.davydov 14:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
OK then, we now have a new tag "music criticism" — P.davydov 16:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Good, we can have Schumann now! 16:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Legend

Twice now (I realize that's not much, but I seem to recall they're not all that rare) I've encountered works called 'Legend'. I'd guess that there's something of 'Ballade', (on analogy with Medtner's skazki/ballades/...), or thelike in the title, but might leave it tagged with 'pieces' until someone has a suggestion really? Thanks in advance! Eric 14:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

You're right to leave them as "pieces" (unless there's a subtitle containing an alternative term), as "Legend" isn't a recognised musical form — P.davydov 16:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Trovato's Pigrizia

He just says this is "jazz", and it is in the form of a header. I've tagged it "jazz" in the meantime, because I think there will already be hundreds of pieces under the generic "pieces". I will change it if is deemed necessary. (Steltz)

And once I hit the enter button, I saw that that category does exist. I guess I do vaguely remember it being discussed, but can it please be put in the tags table (in case I have another senior moment . . . . .;-))))))))
Thanks for reminding me, and jazz has now been added to the table, together with a few more recently-agreed tags for writings — P.davydov 07:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Mind you of course that Jazz is a pretty broad tag...once people start adding Charlie Parker (d. 1955), Jelly Roll Morton (d. 1941) and other PD Jazz composers, we'll see...-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 16:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Quartets now under 'scores featuring string ensemble'?

doesn't this tag sort of imply scores for string orchestra? Not necessarily I guess but it seems to for me. All string quartets seem to be there now, instead of works that have 'str' in their tags... is this intentional? Thanks - Eric 22:49, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I've long been troubled by the fact that baroque works that include a string group along with other instruments were included with "Works featuring string orchestra", while others that were intended for string orchestra proper were listed just as string quintets, because the scores didn't make it clear whether the instruments were in the singular or plural. So the change to "Works featuring string ensemble" is intended to improve this situation. It's been extended to any work for string instruments alone containing 3 or more separate parts, but if this proves unpopular it can easily be refined by tweaking MW:G. So far you're the only person to pass comment ... — P.davydov 05:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I would think that anything with more than one on a part should be in the "string ensemble" category, and anything with one on a part should be in categories like quartet, quintet, etc. (Steltz)

Got rid of treatises?

Hi everyone. A few days ago, when working on realizing the categories, I created one for treatises. However, I notice now that it is empty. Has the tag been abandoned? If so, is there any particular reason, and what has it been changed to? Thanks, KGill talk email 21:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice you'd realized that category. In an earlier discussion (see above) we decided on new categories for "music theory", "organology" and "music history", which means that we need to review the small number of works that had already been tagged as treatises. I thought the best way to do this would be to delete the treatise label from MediaWiki:Genres so the contents would show up in Category:Unknown tag and could be reallocated. There are just a handful left, which I'll deal with this weekend... — P.davydov
Thanks for the answer - guess I'll just delete the category then. I created ones for the other tags you mentioned at the same time. KGill talk email 20:56, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Antiphons

I need more information on what should be classified as an antiphon. The tagging table says it is an independent piece from the traditional Latin mass. Can anyone give us a list of what qualifies? (Steltz)

It’s usually a responsory which goes before and after the singing of a psalm (or for brevity, a single psalm verse). If you were to look at the index to the Vatican Antiphonale which is on IMSLP, for example, you’d find literally hundreds of them.
There’s also the votive antiphons, which were large-scale English polyphonic settings composed from mid-1400’s onward until the reign of Queen Liz #1; but these were not for the mass (so the tagging table’s defn is ambiguous!) but for separate devotions to the Virgin. Also, another interesting sub-category of antiphons are the ones for Advent – these make up a “song-cycle” of seven specific texts (each starting with the exclamation “O”!) to be sung on the days leading up to Christmas.
I hope this helps! (It does however require knowledge of vocal music and Catholic liturgy) Philip Legge @ © talk 02:37, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
I ended up classifying 'Ave maris stella' as an antiphon on the basis of a rapid Google search which I will be the first to admit is one of the worse ways of doing anything. Unless it actually is one, please fix! Eric 12:13, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
No, Google will not suffice here for such determinations. The form and function of the text is more of an indicator. Ave maris stella is a hymn – does a lengthy poem with a regular poetic metre not ring bells for you? Antiphons are short unmetrical texts that fit around a psalm verse. Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 13:20, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Would Grove be thorough in indicating what is and isn't an antiphon? Are there certain titles that are always antiphons, or can the titles be sometimes an antiphon, sometimes something else? My main worry is that I might have incorrectly tagged some things already, but I don't want to tag any other sacred categories unless I'm certain what to put where. (Steltz)
We can only do our best, and if there are no clues in Grove or other reliable catalogues of works, then there's nothing wrong with doing a Google search on the title of a religious piece to help with the categorization — P.davydov 08:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Estonian language?

Edgerton's Kalevi Matus is in Estonian. Tag? (Steltz)

According to ISO 639-1, Estonian = et (… phone home) Philip Legge @ © talk 02:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
et added to M:G-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 02:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Many thanks — P.davydov 08:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

thought inspired by a la Tombelle work and others

might we want to create a tag for purely instrumental works inspired by religious texts (in the case of the La Tombelle work, an organ and orchestra work inspired by Ego sum resurrectio et vita?) That may be too much of a muchness especially since we have the somewhat more general 'meditations', but I wanted to propose the thought? Eric 12:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Chimes (or, another thing so soon after the last)

In In Moonlight (Kinder, Ralph) the composer calls for chimes along with the organ, for the first of which I do not see any tagging equivalent for unless one should just use 'bell' or something similar - advice? :) Thanks! Eric 12:21, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Chimes are usually a tuned collection of small tubular bells in a specific key (i.e. a diatonic scale) – though sometimes composers do not indicate the correct instrument, and instead of a collection of chimes as a diatonic scale they actually do want a full chromatic set of tubular bells. You’d probably have to look at the music itself to determine this. Philip Legge @ © talk 13:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Just to add that we have tags "tbl" for tubular bells and "bell" for individual bells — P.davydov 08:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Fairy operas

Hi everyone. In going through VG to realize the tag categories, I came across this tag, which I note is not in the table. Would someone mind explaining exactly what is meant by it? I can guess that it probably refers to operas based on material of fairy tales or other genres of children's fantasy, but am reluctant to write anything on it without being certain. Thanks, KGill talk email 00:54, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Well there are children’s operas/operettas, where the deliberate intention is for all (or almost all) of the vocal roles to be taken by children, rather than adults… I would have thought this a variant on something like that. Philip Legge @ © talk 01:11, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
But looking at the works so classified in the category, this is a French variant of opera buffa… Philip Legge @ © talk 01:13, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
As mentioned under "Operas" in the tagging table, I tentatively started classifying the operas using the categories allocated to them in Wikipedia, of which this is one. They define it as "Opéra féerie (plural, opéras féeries) is a French genre of opera or opéra-ballet based on fairy tales, often with elements of magic in their stories". (As the tagging categories can't contain accents I had to use "Fairy operas" instead of "Opéra féerie"). Of course we don't have to accept Wikipedia's definitions, so discussions on their merits are welcome here — P.davydov 08:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Coincidentally I found another strange opera category not in the table...Farse. (Is this supposed to be 'farce'?) Thanks for the responses, KGill talk email 01:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

... Farsi? Eric 01:06, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, "Farsa (pl. farse) also known as farsetta is a genre of opera associated with Venice n the late 18th and early 19th centuries." — P.davydov 05:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

"Ténor" string instrument

I skimmed through Tolbecques Art du Luthier in order to get the instrument tags. Although his measurements chart gives 4 types -- violon, alto, violoncelle, contrebasse, he earlier discusses 5 types -- those 4 plus "ténor". In the context of a 1903 book -- post-viola da gamba construction, but pre-historical revival of gamba instruments, what would this mean? (Steltz)

Possibly the same instrument as that string trio by Taneyev that we had earlier, a tenor version of the viola that is tuned an octave below the violin, rather than a fifth as the normal instrument? Essentially an intermediate between viola and cello. Philip Legge @ © talk 12:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
We probably haven't encountered them much yet by the way but I don't doubt we will- the 19th century had plenty of since-disappeared instruments of brief lives, as I understand it (2 CDs in my possession include works by Felix Draeseke written for them, two for viola d'alta- played on viola, though I also have a broadcast of one played on a surviving viola d'alta too- and one for quintet-with-violotta, a version of the cello - played as a regular "cello quintet"; a different recording on the same label plays the same work with the violotta and couples it with a sextet by Arnold Krug that uses the violotta too. Only the Krug of these 4 was published (by Forberg in 1897) other than posthumously, I think. Anyway. Something of a digression but some warning :).) Eric 12:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
From this discussion it would seem that no one will be wanting to make one, so I think I should leave the instrument tags "vn va vc db" unless someone feels differently. (Steltz)
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